Traveling While Autistic

[00:00:00] When you're autistic, it's like times a thousand. So travel means so many things and there are like times where it's super easy for me. It's easier than regular life and then times when like it's really hard.

[00:00:20] At a really high level, autistic creates a process on average 42% more information and everything's a sliding scale in the world.

[00:00:30] If you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person, but just as an average number.

[00:00:35] So if you remember when we were growing up, you would always hear like humans only use 7% of their brain.

[00:00:43] And that statistic has been debunked, but it never sat right with me. Like I always wanted to dig into that statistic.

[00:00:52] And that is very, very not true for all neurodivergent people, but especially autistic people.

[00:00:59] So the way it works, when you're born, everybody has the same amount of synapses.

[00:01:05] What makes someone autistic? What autism is, is a resistance to mTOR protein. So we have a lack of mTOR protein.

[00:01:17] So we have less synaptical pruning and it's just passed on through hereditary. It's just like brown eyes, like misphonia, like hearing people chew or, oh my God, on planes, people unwrapping packets.

[00:01:33] Yeah. Like please don't unwrap things. Like you're going to have to not unwrap things.

[00:01:38] Like that is an area for me where I particularly have, um, you asked about superpowers. I have

[00:01:46] hearing, I wouldn't fish it on my worst enemy. That's interesting.

[00:01:50] So I have something called a fantasia. My brain doesn't, I cannot close my eyes and picture a damn thing.

[00:01:56] I can't see a road and imagine like the layout of a city or something, no ability to visualize anything.

[00:02:06] And so there are places where I need supports. Like my sense of direction is terrible because my ability to picture it.

[00:02:14] People say like, it was by that tree. I didn't see the tree. I see in words. That's why I write books for a living.

[00:02:20] Um, so, uh, but some people are hyper visual, like the way I'm hyper auditory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:27] So the pattern is different, but we all have a, uh, a lack of synaptical pruning that shows up in

[00:02:37] different patterns, which means we are taking in more, um, more data. I don't know if you've ever

[00:02:45] had somebody like that you worked with who complained about something like, I don't know,

[00:02:52] a buzzing fluorescent light. And I'm not saying that person was necessarily autistic, but I think

[00:02:57] one of the things that we often think if that buzzing light, you didn't even notice it. And you

[00:03:01] didn't bother you. We often think, wow, that lady's a pain in the ass for complaining about them.

[00:03:06] Like what an annoying lady. Cause we're imagining she hears the buzzing light the way we hear the

[00:03:12] buzzing light, which like not big of a deal. So why are you being a jerk? Yeah. Yeah. But what we

[00:03:18] don't realize is because of these different and, and by the way, it is neuro diversity. So everybody's

[00:03:24] synaptical pruning pattern is different. What makes you autistic is that it is debilitating to the point

[00:03:32] where it can be a disability because that buzzing light literally is giving you a headache is making

[00:03:39] it impossible for you to work is making you anxious. Yeah. Giving you depression is like

[00:03:45] literally making you want to leave the planet. And so the stigma that we are difficult, the reason we

[00:03:53] get fired from everything, work relationships, et cetera, is like this stigma that we're difficult.

[00:03:59] And if we just all had more awareness, like, Hey, everyone's got different. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:04:03] Everyone does. It makes the world better for everyone, not just autistic people. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:09] It made your win to be like, Oh, what do you hear when you hear that light? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:14] Barely didn't notice it. Tell me what's happening for you. Well, and you had mentioned, um, masking

[00:04:19] and that you had to learn how to mask it, but it's exhausting. And if you could just expand on like,

[00:04:25] what is that exactly like masking? Yeah. Well, most autistic people get told like you're a big jerk.

[00:04:34] Why are you making a big deal about the buzzing light? And after a few times, you know, it happened

[00:04:39] when you were 12 at girl scout camp. And then it happened when you were 16 on a school field trip

[00:04:44] or whatever, after enough times you realize to start to deny your own thoughts about things,

[00:04:51] you start gaslighting yourself about everything. And so you're like, well, don't say anything

[00:04:56] because that's just going to cause problems. Ming here is we're talking and that's to help my

[00:05:02] regulation. Um, but we would know it was weird to like rock or move or play with a bubble popper or

[00:05:08] something like that. So we just don't do it. So instead we're like this, we're like, okay,

[00:05:13] let me act normal. How, how's Benef acting right now? Let me act like that all day long.

[00:05:21] And that is like, just imagine squeezing your ass cheeks all day long. That's exhausting.

[00:05:28] Yeah. So then you hit this breaking point where someone will say something to you,

[00:05:34] like, can you pass the catch up and you lose your mind on them and then your relationship falls apart.

[00:05:40] So we're often not even very good at it. Although women tend to be much better than men and people of

[00:05:47] color tend to be much better than white people because it is what keeps you safe. So being very

[00:05:55] good at masking becomes a survival skill. So I mentioned it wasn't very good at it. There's a

[00:06:00] couple of reasons. One of them just has to do with my particular brain and the support needs that I had,

[00:06:06] but a lot of it has to do with privilege. Yeah.

[00:06:09] What do you think of autistic people as little white boys? They're not just little white boys.

[00:06:14] They are specifically little white rich boys. And there is a specific reason for that, which is

[00:06:22] they didn't have to mask. Little rich white boys are seen as valuable to society. And so they were

[00:06:32] allowed to stim or have weird relationships with trains or whatever. And their parents, particularly

[00:06:40] their moms, we call them autism moms, were like, I will get a diagnosis for my child. Whereas like,

[00:06:47] moms of girls or moms of black kids were like, shut up and act right. And so they learned to mask

[00:06:55] to stay alive. The reason why we are able to diagnose better is we can now see what masking looks like.

[00:07:03] Like they have some better tools for that. But also in some ways, there's ways that the world is

[00:07:09] getting worse, but in some ways the world is getting more egalitarian. And those of us who were from

[00:07:16] marginalized communities are like, whoa, hold on. That's me too. Like, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:21] Yeah. For the rest of my life. And we're just, you know, mad as hell and we're not going to take it

[00:07:26] anymore. The other thing that us NTs do that I guess is weird is like, we're always asking, like,

[00:07:32] how are you? I was, I asked you immediately, not even thinking, like, I was like, damn it. I just

[00:07:39] asked that question. It was just, everybody hated me. And you said you weren't going to do that. You

[00:07:44] actually pointed that out. Like the one thing I'm going to ask Angela, how are you? But I feel like

[00:07:50] that's, but don't you feel like that that's part of that cultural and unaware portion of things?

[00:07:57] Well, it's a part of the NT culture. We asked that and we expect people to be like, I'm doing great.

[00:08:02] Unless you really know them and want to tell them how you actually are doing. The answer is,

[00:08:06] right. Because people here don't even like that. You could pick up the cues of like,

[00:08:14] when you're supposed to give the real answer and when you're supposed to give the wrong answer.

[00:08:18] There is like, I have been told the fake answer. I understand the fake. Fine. How are you? I

[00:08:23] understand it. Whenever I'm asked, how are you? I have a whole interior monologue where I'm like,

[00:08:30] no matter what answer, how fine, how are you? That's going to be a good answer. But people don't

[00:08:35] just say, how are you? They say it like with a way, how are you? And now I'm like, fuck, fine. How are

[00:08:40] you? That's the wrong answer. Okay. How are right now? How am I? Let me check in. Guess I'm good.

[00:08:47] How's my relationship going? Gained weight. Should I talk about that? I'm feeling fresh.

[00:08:52] Then I have this whole thing and then I'm like, oh, it's too much. I can't with it.

[00:08:58] And if.

[00:08:59] Yeah, that's definitely interesting to hear that.

[00:09:03] Well, then I, then I must get tested because I go down that rabbit hole.

[00:09:07] Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, just, I mean, and you know, living here in Europe, you know,

[00:09:13] anytime someone asks the question, they hate when American asks that question first of all,

[00:09:18] because yeah, we always say, how are you? And they know that we're fake when we're saying that. And

[00:09:23] you know, it's like a greeting. It's just like, hello. I know that. But for them, if you're asking

[00:09:29] me, yeah. But if you're asking me, how are you? You, then they thinking that, oh, you want to know

[00:09:36] my whole day or my whole, okay. I woke up, I get this, I did that. Yeah. So I'm like, no.

[00:09:43] Actually, you know what's a technique that we teach is to have a more specific opener. For instance,

[00:09:53] if you were going to take a fictional character to dinner, who would it be? That's a much better

[00:09:59] question for an autistic person than how are you? Well, Angela, you have a whole TikTok series on,

[00:10:05] you know, traveling that you, you know, traveling as you said, mentioned before that you travel solo.

[00:10:11] Can you help us with some tips on certain things that, you know, that, that autistic folks can,

[00:10:18] to look for and those who aren't, you know, what can we look for, you know, in a group setting?

[00:10:25] Yeah. Well, I think the orientation that changed for me, cause I, like, I do want to see things I'm

[00:10:33] going to, in that case, it was Italy. Like I'm going to Italy. I want to see things.

[00:10:37] Um, but what I prioritize, and I would say this for Italy or Disney or anywhere is prioritizing

[00:10:45] emotional regulation. And the reason why I prioritize, so I might see less. It's very

[00:10:52] possible. I will see less, but it's also the goal, especially with group travel is to not blow

[00:11:00] things up and for everyone to reminisce about that trip as the time where I embarrassed myself.

[00:11:08] And so, um, so I know if I'm emotionally dysregulated, which is like very, it's, it's easier at home

[00:11:17] for me to stay regulated. Cause I have all my stuff. I have my blanket. I have my pillow. I have my

[00:11:23] brand of tea. I have like my, all my things. And so when you're traveling, you are much more likely

[00:11:30] to become dysregulated when you're dysregulated, you are much more likely to have a meltdown or a

[00:11:37] shutdown. And on that trip, I guess I'll start backwards before I give you some tips. So I'll

[00:11:43] tell you, I'm on that trip. When I got dysregulated, we went to this winery vineyard tour in Tuscany.

[00:11:50] What could be better? I was very excited. Jealous already lovely. And it was a beautiful tour.

[00:11:56] And then something went wrong with the dinner and there was not direct communication, which is one of

[00:12:05] the things that I require. And between the time we ordered and when we got served, it was like an hour.

[00:12:11] And when we got there, I was hungry. I think we got there at seven and then we did this whole tour

[00:12:18] and then it was like nine and we still hadn't eaten. And I was aggressively just like, this is,

[00:12:25] I'm just getting hangry, right? This is not autism specific, but the part that was like an autistic

[00:12:32] issue is everyone in the group decided, which makes sense. We're in Tuscany at a vineyard.

[00:12:39] There's nothing to complain about. All I could think of was like, why is nobody else mad? And why is

[00:12:46] nobody else doing anything? And then when I would ask things, I kept getting like shut down, like,

[00:12:52] they're going to come out sometime, have another glass of wine. And then I was like, I think they're

[00:12:57] trying to get us to buy more wine. Like, I think this is their marketing strategy. So I was doing like

[00:13:02] bottom up processing. And I was like, Sherlock Holmes, also autistic, trying to like solve the mysteries

[00:13:09] of this vineyard. And I was doing like research on my phone and writing letters, like a lawyer and

[00:13:16] gathering facts and data. And I progressively got more and more dysregulated. And then I was moving

[00:13:23] towards a meltdown and I was like, okay, I got to get away from everybody. So I ended up going into the

[00:13:29] bathroom, which is the safe place for all autistic people. And I like sat in the bathroom for an hour,

[00:13:35] which was of course, when the food came out. Oh, no, didn't get food. And I sort of ruined the night

[00:13:42] for myself. But also everyone else was like, what's wrong with Angela? Is Angela okay? Why is Angela

[00:13:48] freaking out? So what I should have done playing that back is I should have prioritized my emotional

[00:13:58] regulation. I should have brought snacks. I was like, oh, I don't ruin the vineyard food. I don't want to ruin

[00:14:04] this. And I was not prepared with the level of self care I needed not to have just a meltdown or very

[00:14:13] close to a shutdown. I think there are videos of me crying in a booth, but I will say, what do you need

[00:14:20] for emotional regulation and pack that first? So one of the things I always pack is my pillow and my

[00:14:28] blanket that is inefficient packing. But I know if I end up with the wrong pillow or the wrong blanket,

[00:14:35] or I'm too cold or too hot, I'm going to end up having a tantrum like that more often and more likely.

[00:14:45] The other thing that has become really important to me is really focusing on packing comfortable clothes.

[00:14:55] So like a lot of times when you think about a trip, you're like, oh, I want these pictures in Tuscany

[00:15:02] with this outfit or whatever. So you can use for the photos, but make sure that you have like

[00:15:10] consistently clothes that are going to be comfortable, not just that they fit you or that

[00:15:16] they're pretty or that you want to wear them or you're dressing like your friends that are going

[00:15:21] and really being your own first self-advocate. So for me, I said, hearing is one of my big issues.

[00:15:31] So I always have loop engage earphones. They're earplugs where you can still hear people talking.

[00:15:38] So if I go to a museum or we went to a shopping mall, I always have those. And I also advocate

[00:15:47] for myself that I'm going to take breaks, but I set it up as an expectation. I knew I was going to need a break.

[00:15:55] So I scoped that out in advance where I could take a break, how I would take a break, when I could take a break,

[00:16:01] having actual schedules and structure. And then I let everyone know ahead of time I was going to do that.

[00:16:08] If I didn't do that, what would have happened is I would have ended up sensory overloaded

[00:16:13] and melting down later. So that self-awareness, by the way, these are tips for autistic people,

[00:16:19] but I don't see how this doesn't help everyone. Right. No, I was just going to say, like, I need

[00:16:24] to do that. I wrote that down, prioritize emotional regulation when traveling. Cause yeah, I need that

[00:16:30] too. Like I'll exhaust myself doing stupid. I think Disney is the worst for that. I've never seen more

[00:16:36] unhappy people. You take your toddlers for 10 hours to stand in line often with heat and bugs. That's the

[00:16:44] plan. That is not a good setup. Like they won't remember it. When you're in a group setting or if

[00:16:52] you're around or about with, with other people, do you let them be aware that you're autistic? And then,

[00:16:59] and then do you, are you, are you afraid because you let folks know that they're now going to

[00:17:06] treat you differently when you don't want to be treated differently, but you want them to be

[00:17:11] understanding and aware. And then the second part is, you know, what can we do, uh, you know,

[00:17:17] neurotypical people to be more aware or compassionate, um, with autistic travel.

[00:17:23] Yeah. So, cause I'm curious. Um, so first thing is when, when you disclose, you sign up to be an

[00:17:35] autism educator. Okay. And, and I think black people go through this where like, just cause black,

[00:17:42] you suddenly have to like educate us on everything. Like, but when you're autistic and when you're

[00:17:48] particularly me, everybody's different where I could disclose, or I could not disclose,

[00:17:54] I have this choice that like, you don't get when you're black. Right. Like it's even worse when

[00:18:00] you're a person of color. That's why I asked the question because sometimes people portray that to

[00:18:07] be you're dumb or you're ignorant or this and that. So I'm glad you brought that up because that's

[00:18:14] important. Yeah. So I think what I, what I do and what I advocate for people is you have to be selective

[00:18:23] about when and where you disclose. And there are times where disclosing is not helpful or good. And

[00:18:32] it's very hard to tell, um, often in work settings, you will be discriminated against and they will find a

[00:18:40] way to fire you. Yes. So now if you need accommodations or if you're applying for disability or going

[00:18:48] through burnout, it is protect protected by the ADA in America. Um, it's even more protected in England.

[00:18:55] They have the autism act of 2009. You can't be fired, um, for it, but they will find a way. Yes.

[00:19:03] People are creative. Yes. Yes. That is true. Um, so Megan Joe is a neurotypical friend of mine who I

[00:19:11] never knew the answer to your question. Like what can we do as neurotypicals? She does it so perfectly.

[00:19:18] It's so easy. And it's my favorite thing to tell people, which is ask questions about me. If you see

[00:19:25] me do something weird, that seems weird to you, like ask too many questions about how long the food is

[00:19:32] taking. So a lot of it's we're bottom up processor. So we ask a lot of questions. Um, if you see me

[00:19:38] like leave a room and walk away, what most neurotypicals want to do is they want to fix it.

[00:19:45] So they're like, are you okay? How come you left? And question that would be more helpful to me

[00:19:53] is like, what's going on? What did you just experience? Tell me what experience you're having.

[00:19:59] Explain this. We are often, I love as being liars or the little boy who cried wolf or Cassandra's

[00:20:09] we're all called Cassandra. Um, the emperor's new clothes. It's another Hans Anderson book. And that

[00:20:15] isn't a very typical autistic. We're like, hello, he's naked. Anyway, Megan just always, whenever I do

[00:20:25] something, instead of jumping to being like defensive or mad at me, her, for whatever reason,

[00:20:32] her initial reaction is I must ask more questions. Yeah. Don't that's yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:40] Yeah. But I think, yeah, I have good intent. The assumption that the assumption is usually I'm trying

[00:20:46] to manipulate you or get something. And like, I swear I'm not, I'm just trying to understand.

[00:20:52] I just need more information, whatever. And I'll be honest, I would know. So I think a light bulb

[00:20:59] went off in my head when you said the way to ask a question, if someone, because it's natural

[00:21:06] for us, for everyone with, you see somebody just walk off just because or whatever is to just say,

[00:21:13] Hey, what's up? Why'd you walk off? Yeah. Well, I personally wouldn't have done that because I'm a

[00:21:18] New Yorker and I'm be like, why the fuck you walk off? Like fuck angrily, but I'm not angry. I'm not

[00:21:25] angry, but I'm, that's what I would say. You would be pissed if I did that probably like this New Yorker.

[00:21:30] I would just tell you two 30 words and then walk away. Yeah. I'd be like, why the fuck you walk away?

[00:21:35] That's, that's rude, but I did not know about your situation. I want to give another travel example.

[00:21:42] I think will be helpful. I went to Aruba a few months ago and there's a place in Aruba where

[00:21:48] you like, I don't know if it's jumping in a blow hole or something, but it's like some sort of cliff

[00:21:53] jumping that everyone does. It's like one tourist stops where you jump off a cliff into some sort of

[00:21:59] very blue and beautiful water. And anyone who is autistic, who is proprio seeking, they might enjoy

[00:22:07] that stuff, but I am very proprioceptive avoidant and hate things like that. And this was the first

[00:22:15] time that I knew in advance, I wasn't going to do it. So usually before something like that,

[00:22:21] I'm super nervous. There's always someone in the group who's super nervous. Right. And then everyone

[00:22:26] will like cheer them on. Like you got this and you can do this, be brave. You got this. And like,

[00:22:33] that's the part that makes me want to die. Now I feel like I'm going to let everyone else down if I

[00:22:41] don't jump, but also I'm taking so much time, but I'm in this, like I'm spinning. Cause I don't want

[00:22:48] to do it, but maybe I should, they're going to be like, they're like, you're going to be so happy

[00:22:52] when you do it. Think of how good it's going to feel when you did it. False motivation.

[00:22:57] Think of how it's going to feel. Think of how it's going to feel. Think of how it's not getting

[00:23:04] anything from that. So then I'm slowing everything down and I'm like in this anxiety loop.

[00:23:11] So anything that is adventurous with travel, when you're in a group, and again,

[00:23:17] not everybody's diagnosed, most autistic people are not diagnosed. So my travel tips for everyone

[00:23:24] to make the world more neuro affirming is does somebody want to be encouraged to jump or walk

[00:23:34] the tight rope or whatever? Like, will they be happy when it's finished? I think more urging ways to

[00:23:42] approach that are just like, do it or don't do it. You are here. Or do you want me to cheer you on?

[00:23:49] Does that motivate you? Or do you want some space? So it seems, it just really seems that the going,

[00:23:54] the going theme is then, you know, when dealing with someone who is autistic or, or better, or better,

[00:24:00] I should say for those who have not, um, you know, where you may not be sure about the best thing to do

[00:24:06] is to ask qualifying questions. And I think that goes for anybody. Um, you know, whether you're

[00:24:12] trying to get to know someone for everyone, or you're in a situation that you're not too sure of

[00:24:17] is ask, ask questions and, and be patient, honestly, believe people. Yes. Huge, huge. Well, this is,

[00:24:27] this has just been fantastic, Angela. I really, really do appreciate your time. I know, I know we're

[00:24:31] a little bit longer on this, but I was going to say, can I give you one more tip? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:36] Absolutely. Absolutely. So my favorite thing about this tip is that it's new research. So this is

[00:24:44] research from a guy named Damian Milton at the university of Kent from 2012. Um, I mentioned to

[00:24:51] you guys before we started recording that I'm doing a PhD. It is with Damian Milton. Okay. Damian Milton

[00:24:58] has an autistic kid. One of the things that we were all told, I was told when I got my diagnosis is

[00:25:03] autistic people lack empathy. It often appears like we lack empathy. There's a lot of evidence.

[00:25:11] It's all based on this theory of mind. Simon Baron Cohen did a bunch of stuff. It's all BS. It was

[00:25:17] Sasha Baron Cohen's brother. So he designs this study, gets together three groups of people,

[00:25:24] one group of all neurotypicals, one group of all autistic people, and one group that is mixed 50,

[00:25:33] 50 autistic and neurotypical. Something happens in the group. There's a Confederate, something happens

[00:25:40] and the other person is expected to react. So let's just say they drop their books or something.

[00:25:47] Okay. The neurotypical group finds that the other neurotypical person has empathy. They're like,

[00:25:55] yes, big marks for empathy. I dropped my books. They picked them up. It all went the way I was

[00:25:59] supposed to. In the autistic group, the autistic people report. Yes. The other autistic person,

[00:26:06] they didn't know they were autistic. The other person had empathy. I dropped my books and they

[00:26:11] stood there while I picked them up because they didn't want to interrupt my flow or put the books

[00:26:17] in the wrong order, which would have been so fucking rude if somebody just books and stacks them wrong.

[00:26:23] So they're like, they stood there. They asked me questions while I picked up my books.

[00:26:27] And then in this third group, this mixed group, the autistic people were like, these people are

[00:26:34] assholes. I dropped my books and they just reorder them. They're upside down. There's back one.

[00:26:39] And the neurotypical people are like, these autistic people are fucking assholes. They have no empathy.

[00:26:46] I dropped my books and they didn't even pick them up. So this is called the double empathy problem.

[00:26:56] Research Damien Milton's classic and so important double empathy problem where he found autistic people

[00:27:02] have empathy with just as much empathy. Our empathy just looks different than your empathy.

[00:27:09] You are judging it through the gaze of a neurotypical lens. You're like, this is what empathy looks like.

[00:27:17] But we have in our culture, a way that we do empathy that works for us. And if you are alive,

[00:27:26] you know, at least one autistic person. So the actual right now are about 3%.

[00:27:32] My guess is it's closer to 10%. And most of the people that are not diagnosed are women, queer people, and people of color.

[00:27:40] My advice to you is if there's someone in your life who you think lacks empathy, that's not to say nobody lacks empathy.

[00:27:47] I would just start digging around. If this is somebody you love, a kid, a parent, a boss, maybe not somebody you love, but somebody you have to deal with.

[00:27:56] And it just bugs you that they lack total empathy. If you've ever thought that or said that, look into the double empathy research, because you might benefit from just learning our culture.

[00:28:10] Yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. Really good stuff. Thank you so much, Dr. Angela.

[00:28:13] Thank you so, so very much for, you know, for, again, spending this time with us and just, you know, just letting us share in this with you and be better, be better prepared, you know, certainly for out there.

[00:28:27] So, Dr. Angela, thank you.

[00:28:29] Thank you so much for having me.

[00:28:31] Thank you again for joining us for another episode of Rhythm and Roam.

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[00:28:44] Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day.

[00:28:47] Thank you. Cheers.