Why is Blackface a Dutch Christmas Tradition?

[00:00:00] I'm now 39. I started playing Sinterklaas when I was 18, so that's 20 years. When I started it 20 years ago, we went, Zwarte Piet went with completely blackface as well then, because we were performing for children of friends and we didn't want to recognize them.

[00:00:23] But we were not questioning it. It's only like the last 10-15 years that we really start questioning it because it was also everywhere in the news and on social media and we started to think about it and discuss with it and then realize, oh my God, that's offensive and we never realized it.

[00:00:45] That's an important side note. And we never realized it, but now we realize. And that's why I can relate with both parties. I also can relate with my friend and I said like, okay, even now, 2023, that was last year, you're still not realizing. He is now where I was 15 years before and he's still not realizing, okay, he needs more time.

[00:01:18] Why is Dutch blackface a holiday tradition? Because I wouldn't have known anything about it at all unless I have a cousin that lives in Belgium. And his sisters went to visit him for Christmas. And so they're like bebopping around the small town because they live in Flanders, the Flemish area. And they're seeing all these dolls, these black

[00:01:46] black dolls and these people like in blackface, white people in blackface dressed up. And they're just like, what is this shit? And so it was just like really, really bizarre to them to see this because you wouldn't be caught dead doing that here in the United States.

[00:02:08] There will be a riot for sure. No, I mean, I know where you are.

[00:02:13] Well, I mean, but why, you know, and so it was a whole like she was just totally like dumbfounded that this was something that they did every year and that her brother's son had this black Pete Schwartz Pete doll. And she's like, he's gonna get his ass kicked. You know,

[00:02:30] if he goes, did the doll look the same?

[00:02:36] But yeah, it looks, I mean, so they were like, what is it? And they're like, we know, we know, we know it's a tradition. We're, we're gonna tell him.

[00:02:43] But, you know, so it brought the question to my mind. First of all, what is this tradition of black Pete or Schwartz, Schwartz Pete? What is it?

[00:02:53] But to take you back to the history. Let's put it there. So very simply put, it's a holiday tradition. It's called a black Pete or Schwartz Pete, right? That's known in the Netherlands, primarily. But in this case, Paul, we were speaking on Belgium, right? Or excuse me, Brussels.

[00:03:10] So just that whole region, because they're right next to each other. Yeah, but it's a holiday tradition, tradition, dating back to the 19th century, that depicts a helper of St. Nicholas or St. Nicholas, right? Or Nicholas, dressed in black face. Now, this is where it gets dicey. For us, Afro wig is used large red lips, and golden hoop earrings.

[00:03:38] Right. So clearly representing a slave or someone from what they perceive to be Africa.

[00:03:47] Correct. So, but the real main reason, get to the real main reason of what the Zort Pete does.

[00:03:54] Well, well, they, well, bring joy, you know, bring joy for the Christmas season. It's a, it's a, it's the spirit of Christmas, basically. And it's depicted in what we all know here in the United States as Santa Claus, and what Santa Claus represents, right, to children.

[00:04:12] And, you know, the, the, the fact of gift giving parents, you know, buy gifts, they, you know, put it under this name of Santa Claus, and Santa Claus brings Christmas joy and cheer to all.

[00:04:23] Then he has helpers as well that we call elves.

[00:04:26] Exactly.

[00:04:27] Yes, elves.

[00:04:28] Yes.

[00:04:29] But our, I think our problem with it, and the problem with most people of color and black people individually, is how does the Afro wig, the red lips, and the hoop earrings come into play?

[00:04:41] And the black face, like, and the black, and on top, right, the black face. Why is that so significant?

[00:04:47] Yeah. So that leads to the point of where my friend, who knows another friend, because, you know, everybody knows somebody, who actually plays Santa Claus during this tradition, his name is Ren.

[00:05:02] And he gets into full character, and, you know, you'll hear, let's hear what he says the tradition stands for.

[00:05:12] First of all, I want to make clear that this is a holiday. When we go, like with every fairy tale, there is a moment when Sinterklaas, Saint Nicholas, enters the room.

[00:05:25] And there are, no matter what, if there is in a house with only, like, some families gathering together with town children and families, or a school with 300 children.

[00:05:36] This is a moment of fairy tale, even if it's only one hour, when everybody forgetting everything, and we just dive into fantasy.

[00:05:44] And it's just about sharing this beautiful moment of happiness and love.

[00:05:52] Well, the question is, the question that I kept asking myself was, how do we navigate something that we see as wildly offensive in our culture, as people of color, as black people in America?

[00:06:09] And they don't. They don't. They don't find it offensive, or a lot of them do not. It's just something that they do. So how do we navigate that? That's like, there's this wide gap.

[00:06:21] This is the controversy that I, that it's not only just the actual event is an issue. Because for me, I didn't know how I was going to take it when I met this guy to do interviews and talk with him and stuff like this.

[00:06:34] And he explained it to me. When he explained it to me, it made sense. He said, like you said, Benep, it's the helper who goes down the chimney, not Santa Claus, but the helper is the one that actually goes down the chimney.

[00:06:45] From the chimney, from the chimney, it makes sense. From the chimney, they get, obviously, the soot from the chimney. So you get like the black face or dust.

[00:06:56] Yeah, I know. Yes, yes.

[00:06:58] However, however, I try to be cordial and I'm like, well, if you're going to get dust on your face, why is it all black? Because when you go and get dust on your face, your whole face don't turn black and you don't get red lips.

[00:07:12] And what about the clothing?

[00:07:13] The clothes, yeah, the clothes is all perfect and there's no dirt or anything.

[00:07:18] And you don't get red lips.

[00:07:19] Yeah.

[00:07:21] I was starting to get a little.

[00:07:23] The last time I checked, who rings?

[00:07:25] So I think that is just a load of BS because they are representing slaves. It's from that time when they had slaves and they were trying to depict the slaves as happy people helping Santa because everybody wants a happy slave.

[00:07:37] They didn't say that in their definition. They never said that in their definition. Of course not.

[00:07:41] But however, as you know, that part of the country started to get more culturally diverse, it started to become like, wait, this is not tolerable.

[00:07:52] However, yeah, that's one piece of it.

[00:07:56] But I see it almost every day, even when I lived in Germany or not this particular thing, but just things that are in America we know would be, you know, racially charged or insensitive.

[00:08:10] Like there are people, guys, that are still referring to, for example, black people as, you know, color, you know, or colored, excuse me.

[00:08:23] And that's obviously incorrect statement to call somebody.

[00:08:27] I can't tell you how many times I've run into people in Europe, but they think we're too sensitive or whatever, but they don't understand the ramification of all this and the race issue.

[00:08:38] And even when I was speaking with my, with, with the interviewer who plays Santa Claus and tells me about it and the tradition, and he's been doing like his father started doing it or his grandfather started to do this.

[00:08:51] So it's, it's a long lineage for him.

[00:08:54] His grandfather, his father did it is now him.

[00:08:58] And like you said, Tricia, they go give gifts, they do all this other stuff.

[00:09:03] And you'll see throughout this whole podcast with a lot of what it looks like and what is going on and what newscasters and protests have been about.

[00:09:13] I tried so hard to get, you know, interviews of people of color, but I couldn't.

[00:09:20] Right.

[00:09:20] However, did you just not see any people there?

[00:09:23] Well, I did.

[00:09:25] There are people of color that was there, but there was no, unfortunately, the big deal of it was the day of, and the day of was like November 17th when Santa Claus actually arrived.

[00:09:37] That's when you see the people with the black face and the tradition, my understanding now is that the younger folks or the generation X to younger are really trying to change.

[00:09:49] This mentality.

[00:09:51] Because it's just, it makes no sense.

[00:09:53] Yes.

[00:09:54] In this day and age.

[00:09:55] But the older generation wants to continue to keep this painting of the black face.

[00:10:01] And it is completely, in my view, very offensive, very insulting.

[00:10:06] Well, yes.

[00:10:10] And I want us to, I kind of want us to.

[00:10:26] I'm getting angry right now.

[00:10:27] I'm sorry.

[00:10:28] The crux of that, though, because it's very similar to a situation here.

[00:10:33] Do you remember when, you know, during COVID, when, was it during COVID?

[00:10:38] I can't, it must have been during COVID when, you know, all of a sudden, all of a sudden, we say, you know, the pulling, even, I guess, previous to COVID.

[00:10:47] And, of course, I'm sure this was ushered in due to the presidency that we had.

[00:10:50] But everyone started pulling down, you know, talking about the Confederate flag, started talking about pulling down all the monuments and different things at the different campuses and, you know, public buildings that we have here in the United States and that sort of thing.

[00:11:02] And then it kind of trickled over into, now we have to change the box of Uncle Ben's and now we have to change Aunt Jemima and all of these other things.

[00:11:13] Oddly enough, we had white friends here saying that how can they change that?

[00:11:19] You know, it's tradition.

[00:11:21] Well, it's the same definition that Ren was telling us that, you know, it primarily was the older, is the older generation that is wanting to keep this because out of tradition.

[00:11:34] It's a tradition.

[00:11:35] But I get that it may be their tradition, but for some reason, there seems to be a disconnect between tradition and an actual person and how that could be offensive.

[00:11:47] Yeah, it's not that it's their tradition.

[00:11:49] It's just that it's tradition from when it started.

[00:11:51] We got all that.

[00:11:52] But that's what I'm trying to say, that what they're saying.

[00:11:54] But I'm saying I'm saying their tradition because it's their tradition.

[00:11:58] Yeah.

[00:11:58] It's not ours.

[00:12:00] Right.

[00:12:00] You know what I'm saying?

[00:12:01] Like, I'm not going to own that.

[00:12:03] And I don't think I don't think anyone of anyone that's black should own that.

[00:12:06] You know, it's certainly it's certainly part of our history of being a slave, but we don't have to own them or condone them.

[00:12:15] Yeah.

[00:12:15] But let's be clear.

[00:12:16] So they can celebrate a holiday.

[00:12:18] Right.

[00:12:18] Right.

[00:12:18] So let's be clear.

[00:12:20] It's not that and I want to because I want to make sure that I'm not making it sound like we're just bashing their culture or tradition.

[00:12:29] But let's be clear.

[00:12:30] We're trying to understand it.

[00:12:32] Yeah.

[00:12:32] We're trying to understand.

[00:12:34] Absolutely.

[00:12:34] The people in Belgium or Flemish area, Belgium and the Netherlands, are not wanting to get rid of the tradition.

[00:12:46] What they're saying is we can still have the tradition, which I agree.

[00:12:50] You still can have the tradition.

[00:12:51] You just don't need to be painting your goddamn face fully black and wearing red lipstick and stuff like this.

[00:12:57] That's what the problem is.

[00:13:00] And I think that's what people at least I only can talk for myself.

[00:13:05] That's where I feel the fence comes in, you know, being insulted as a person of color.

[00:13:10] But the only people of color I met during the holiday of St. Nicholas were or maybe parents or teachers or children.

[00:13:22] Everybody is enjoying the holiday and the fantasy of that moment.

[00:13:27] So at that moment, there is no time.

[00:13:30] Also no time to discuss.

[00:13:32] And I can honestly say so far, nobody ever approached me to say that they were offended.

[00:13:39] The only experience I had sometimes was that black children were just checking on my colleague who plays Zwarte Piet.

[00:13:52] And we're just like verifying that it's not the same, that like touching his skin.

[00:13:56] And then maybe sometimes...

[00:13:59] But did you guys try to explain to them maybe?

[00:14:01] Oh, they figure out themselves.

[00:14:03] They just know it from themselves.

[00:14:05] They touch him and they look like, oh yeah, you're dirty.

[00:14:09] I'm black for my own, but you're dirty.

[00:14:12] And we don't have to explain anything.

[00:14:14] They figure out themselves.

[00:14:15] It doesn't need a lot of explanation.

[00:14:17] So the society is very aware that it's not done anymore.

[00:14:24] And I think there's still people who are stubborn and old-fashioned.

[00:14:29] As you know, we just had elections in Belgium.

[00:14:32] And it wasn't that great.

[00:14:34] It wasn't that great.

[00:14:35] And it's very right.

[00:14:36] And the extreme right party is very much alive.

[00:14:39] And there's those people who are still very stubborn and say, no, this is our tradition.

[00:14:45] And everything in the universe is changing.

[00:14:47] But that tradition has to stay.

[00:14:50] And we are maintaining black faces.

[00:14:52] And I'm like, okay, I cannot force you.

[00:14:56] I cannot tell you how you will do your makeup.

[00:14:58] But I will do my makeup and from my friends as we think that is correct to do.

[00:15:07] Obviously, it does offend me.

[00:15:10] I'm not going to sit here.

[00:15:11] Obviously.

[00:15:11] I'm not going to sit here and act like it doesn't.

[00:15:13] It does because of what it means.

[00:15:15] Yeah.

[00:15:17] From years past.

[00:15:18] Yeah.

[00:15:20] But I think if you're going to do something like that and we're going to tell the story

[00:15:25] the right way and somebody's going to put the black face on because you're going and signifying

[00:15:30] they're going in a chimney, then you should also not come out of the chimney with just

[00:15:35] a black face and pristine clothes.

[00:15:38] That should be dirty as well, which would take away from the fact maybe a little bit of

[00:15:44] the offensiveness of it.

[00:15:45] Because right now, I know it's you guys' tradition here in Belgium and the Netherlands.

[00:15:55] But it's just the fact that when outsiders see it, because you guys got to look at that.

[00:16:02] You have to look at the fact that because you have tourism here.

[00:16:06] So what I'm saying is because there's tourism, you might have people that's outside of your

[00:16:12] country that don't know nothing about the tradition.

[00:16:15] And now you expect them just because they're visiting and paying their own money to come

[00:16:19] to your country to just suck it up and deal with it.

[00:16:23] That's basically what I think is being said.

[00:16:27] By me?

[00:16:28] No, not by you.

[00:16:29] Just in general.

[00:16:30] Because you said people still do the black face.

[00:16:33] Some do that.

[00:16:33] Yeah.

[00:16:34] So what they're saying is you can put little smut kind of like what I've shown where you

[00:16:39] have dust from the chimney as signifying.

[00:16:44] But your face is not covered in full dark black makeup.

[00:16:47] See, I don't know.

[00:16:48] But I don't know if that's even if that's even OK either.

[00:16:52] And the reason why I say that is because it still it still has a reference to that.

[00:16:58] I mean, I understand them coming down the chimney.

[00:17:00] But again, you know, Santa Claus come down the chimney.

[00:17:03] But even her Santa Claus doesn't have soot.

[00:17:05] No, but remember.

[00:17:07] You're right.

[00:17:07] But remember, it is not only.

[00:17:09] It is possible to get soot from.

[00:17:10] Soot.

[00:17:11] Exactly.

[00:17:12] But I do think that they.

[00:17:13] So why is there soot not on the outfit?

[00:17:15] That's what I'm trying to say.

[00:17:16] But that's my point.

[00:17:16] So put it on the outfit.

[00:17:18] So there's inconsistencies there.

[00:17:19] And the other thing that I would hope that they don't just discard is the, I mean,

[00:17:26] sharing the actual history of why this tradition was like that.

[00:17:29] Like, I don't think they should forget that because people need to understand that.

[00:17:33] But we had slaves and we treated them like this.

[00:17:36] And we tried to, you know, gaslight the entire population by making everyone think that they

[00:17:42] were happy.

[00:17:43] Yes.

[00:17:43] And wanted to be Santa's helper.

[00:17:45] I mean, and so to show the evolution of their tradition.

[00:17:49] Yeah.

[00:17:50] And they're like, oh, well, probably, you know, this costume costs 500 euros.

[00:17:54] So I don't want to get it dirty.

[00:17:56] But it's not, it's not only.

[00:17:58] So my understanding when Ren was talking about it too, as well, it's not only the black

[00:18:02] person that's coming down the chimney.

[00:18:05] It's a whole bunch of Santa's.

[00:18:07] Well, now.

[00:18:08] Right.

[00:18:08] Now it is, yes.

[00:18:10] And the only reason why I say I don't have an issue as well as other people that I've

[00:18:15] spoken with, my other friend, don't have an, like they have an issue with the whole

[00:18:20] black face and stuff like this because they think, like my friend said, it's just racist

[00:18:25] and he's white.

[00:18:26] And I tend to agree that there's some kind of form of racism in that.

[00:18:31] However, they don't have an issue.

[00:18:33] And I personally don't have an issue.

[00:18:35] If it's just, you have a lot of black marks here and there, because then you're going to

[00:18:39] get, the reason why I say that, Trisha, is because you're going to get into the sense

[00:18:43] of, okay, then if the black thing has an issue with it, then why?

[00:18:47] When we're in the military, we put black marks all over our face.

[00:18:50] Why in football do we put black marks all over our face?

[00:18:55] So I'm just saying.

[00:18:58] So in football, yeah, that's fine.

[00:19:01] I can explain the football.

[00:19:02] The football is to catch sweat.

[00:19:04] Yeah, but you've seen people put a whole bunch of makeup more than on the eyes.

[00:19:09] I personally have not seen that.

[00:19:10] I've always been under their eyes.

[00:19:12] I have.

[00:19:12] And if they did that, yeah, well, that too shall pass, right?

[00:19:18] So maybe now.

[00:19:19] It's just because they want to look mean.

[00:19:20] And now.

[00:19:20] They want to look mean.

[00:19:21] Yeah, and I get it.

[00:19:22] But now they have, now they have different colors that they come in.

[00:19:25] They don't have color color black.

[00:19:26] That would probably be a rendition of like tribal war paint from.

[00:19:30] But that's my point.

[00:19:31] The Native Americans.

[00:19:31] So we don't.

[00:19:32] Right.

[00:19:33] That's my point.

[00:19:33] So you got to be careful.

[00:19:34] Yeah.

[00:19:35] Of how far do we want to go?

[00:19:37] But my, I personally think that the tradition, don't get rid of it.

[00:19:41] That's not what the community wants.

[00:19:43] That's not what the country wants.

[00:19:44] Well, I don't think that's what we're saying.

[00:19:45] Yeah.

[00:19:45] Yeah.

[00:19:46] They want, what I'm saying is, I don't have a problem if you're just little dads of black

[00:19:52] here and there.

[00:19:54] I can see that you're white.

[00:19:57] But, you know, mess up the clothes to you to show that you're going down the chimney.

[00:20:01] And there's dust because you do get soot if you're probably going down the chimney.

[00:20:05] Not necessary.

[00:20:05] I don't fall for that.

[00:20:06] Well, of course you do.

[00:20:07] Because I'm just saying that I don't agree with that.

[00:20:10] I don't think they should have it at all.

[00:20:11] No, it's fair.

[00:20:12] There's no reason to depict, you know, you coming down the chimney.

[00:20:16] The whole purpose of the celebration is to celebrate the spirit of Christmas.

[00:20:21] It's to celebrate Christmas.

[00:20:23] What does come, why does the actual act of coming down the chimney and having a literal

[00:20:28] implication, knowing that where the history of that comes from.

[00:20:33] Why do we have Santa Claus coming down the chimney?

[00:20:35] Why should we be?

[00:20:36] No, I think that's covering.

[00:20:37] But why do we have Santa Claus coming down the chimney?

[00:20:38] They are literally trying to do a CYA.

[00:20:40] They're covering their asses to come up with a plausible explanation for why they were in

[00:20:44] black faith.

[00:20:45] Exactly.

[00:20:46] But again, why is it necessary to do that?

[00:20:49] I'm saying go.

[00:20:49] Well, let's be clear.

[00:20:50] In America, though.

[00:20:51] Go ahead and turn this.

[00:20:52] Yeah.

[00:20:52] In America.

[00:20:54] But in America, Zort Pete or the Santa's helper is not what come down the chimney.

[00:20:59] In America, it's Santa Claus, a big white guy.

[00:21:04] Who's to say that Santa Claus is supposed to be white?

[00:21:07] Do you know what I mean?

[00:21:08] Like, then you're going to get that big controversy.

[00:21:09] I never said that Santa Claus was white.

[00:21:11] But was Saint Nicholas?

[00:21:11] Was that actual?

[00:21:12] Well, that's what we were told.

[00:21:13] That's what we were taught in school.

[00:21:15] He was white.

[00:21:15] Yeah.

[00:21:15] But you also forget that Santa Claus was also created by Coca-Cola, which was run by,

[00:21:21] you know.

[00:21:21] I don't know what the creator.

[00:21:23] But there was an actual Saint Nicholas.

[00:21:25] Yeah, there was an actual Saint Nicholas.

[00:21:26] But what I'm trying to say is, is that that has never been my Christmas.

[00:21:30] I know plenty of people that celebrate, you know, or try to, you know, find a black Santa

[00:21:34] Claus to take pictures with, you know, or to depict their family and in, in, in that,

[00:21:41] within that tradition.

[00:21:42] You don't have a problem with that.

[00:21:43] But if you're outwardly celebrating and you know full and well that there's other people

[00:21:47] and how that can be offensive, then why would you continue to do it?

[00:21:52] There are plenty of.

[00:21:53] That is the question.

[00:21:54] Do they, that is the question.

[00:21:56] Do they care that it might be offensive to Americans who are not eligible or funnish?

[00:22:01] But then we're going to be.

[00:22:02] According to your interview with Wren, though, Paul, I have a question to ask.

[00:22:05] With your interview with Wren, you did, he did say that there is, there is this movement

[00:22:12] though to make this change, right?

[00:22:14] He even said so himself.

[00:22:15] And he even said so himself.

[00:22:17] Not to get rid of it, but to make the change, to be a little bit more.

[00:22:19] No, no, no, to make the change.

[00:22:21] Right.

[00:22:21] So that they're at least not painting their faces and hands and whatever else they do.

[00:22:25] But what I'm saying is, is that Wren even said so himself that he saw some merit

[00:22:30] in that, even though he becomes this.

[00:22:33] And he, he now just for clarification, does Wren actually go full on?

[00:22:38] No, no, he is St. Nicholas.

[00:22:40] So, but the people who is the helper.

[00:22:43] Right.

[00:22:44] Right.

[00:22:44] I'm glad he does.

[00:22:45] He does not do or hire helpers who paint their face completely dark.

[00:22:51] And I've shown that in some captures and you'll see it going across the screen and stuff

[00:22:57] like this.

[00:22:58] Yeah.

[00:22:58] Well, first of all, hats off to Wren.

[00:23:00] First of all, for, for agreeing to do this on camera, knowing that, you know, the.

[00:23:04] He's super into it and I could see his passion about it and it's a family tradition.

[00:23:09] I get it.

[00:23:10] And, and, and, and like I said, you know, I don't know how, cause I know, Benef, when

[00:23:16] you brought it up, I thought it was a joke and I was like, oh, and, and I'm very sensitive

[00:23:20] when it comes to, because.

[00:23:21] I mean, the question, I guess I'm still like, you know, because what do people of color that

[00:23:27] live there think?

[00:23:28] First of all, because our opinion is not as crucial really.

[00:23:32] Yeah.

[00:23:33] Yeah.

[00:23:33] I don't live there.

[00:23:34] It's not our culture, whatever.

[00:23:35] We can't go around just totally judging every other country's culture because we would be

[00:23:41] continuously pissed off.

[00:23:42] I mean, the way that people treat their women, their children, based on human rights, we would

[00:23:47] never survive.

[00:23:49] So like, do they see it as a problem?

[00:23:53] And I guess he was saying that, yes, there, there, there are communities that see it as

[00:23:57] a problem, which is why they're trying to evolve.

[00:23:59] Yes.

[00:23:59] Yes.

[00:24:00] And my friend.

[00:24:03] Well, I was just saying that there was the, I just wanted to mention this other article

[00:24:06] real quick that for all the, outside of the Al Jazeera, the time there's a time magazine

[00:24:11] article goes more onto the racial aspect of this so that you can get some background.

[00:24:17] Um, so we'll post both of the, the links to these articles, uh, below in the comment section

[00:24:22] so that you guys can have an opportunity to look as well.

[00:24:25] Definitely when you comment, you'll have some, some premise of this, but, um, I know Paul,

[00:24:30] uh, you know, you were there on the ground.

[00:24:32] So having that information, you know, or having that information would be great for our viewers.

[00:24:37] And I, and I wanted to also add in there that when I spoke with my friend who told me

[00:24:41] about it, who strictly hate this tradition period, because I mean, he's white and he hates it.

[00:24:50] And every time I ask him about it, he's like, Oh, I don't like, you know, I don't celebrate

[00:24:55] it.

[00:24:55] So I'm the wrong person to ask about it.

[00:24:57] However, I've asked him if he knows people of color and he's asked people of color and

[00:25:03] And they too have said that it's a stupid tradition.

[00:25:07] However, they do have black St. Nicholas in Belgium, which my friend who plays St. Nicholas,

[00:25:16] no, excuse me.

[00:25:16] My friend's friend who plays St. Nicholas, who I interviewed, Ren, showed, and you'll see

[00:25:22] there are black St. Nicholas.

[00:25:24] So there's the weird controversy.

[00:25:27] Okay.

[00:25:27] It is whatever, but okay.

[00:25:29] Now you have black St. Nicholas.

[00:25:31] So now does Zort Pete, like, how does that work now?

[00:25:35] So basically to put this into perspective, then what we've learned about black Pete or

[00:25:40] Zort Pete as is, as described or has explained is, is a holiday tradition that is celebrated

[00:25:47] by the Dutch between November 17th through December, the first part of December, December

[00:25:53] 5th, 6th, somewhere around that area.

[00:25:55] So, right.

[00:25:56] The 7th, I think it is the 7th.

[00:25:58] Okay.

[00:25:58] So it's about a two, three week celebration.

[00:26:00] And basically what St. Nicholas does, along with his helpers, is that they bring gifts

[00:26:04] and they go far, right?

[00:26:06] Rural, they do within the city, within the schools, rurally.

[00:26:10] This is basically for the kids.

[00:26:11] It's not for adults.

[00:26:13] It's not for adults.

[00:26:14] It's strictly for kids.

[00:26:16] And so, and this celebration is held to kind of usher in the Christmas season, right?

[00:26:21] Yeah.

[00:26:21] So, so what we've learned then in our, in our discussion with Ren, and again, thanking

[00:26:28] Ren again, is that he does it.

[00:26:31] And what I found, it's actually quite noble for him.

[00:26:34] He educates, yeah.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:36] He's educating.

[00:26:37] He's, he's reaching out to the community.

[00:26:40] He's, you know, giving these experiences to children who may not necessarily have the

[00:26:46] opportunity to have gifts or, or have a Christmas.

[00:26:48] So this was, I, that's what I got from him.

[00:26:52] I don't want Ren to be vilified, because, vilified, am I saying that right?

[00:26:56] No.

[00:26:57] No.

[00:26:58] Because I want folks to realize, but he's never himself dressed in blackface.

[00:27:03] No, because he's St. Nicholas.

[00:27:04] No, he's St. Nicholas.

[00:27:06] So he does.

[00:27:06] No, no, I, I know.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:07] I know that.

[00:27:08] And his helpers, I want to make, I'm just trying to make this clear.

[00:27:12] Yeah.

[00:27:12] His helpers that he hires do not do blackface.

[00:27:15] No, I mean, it's just really.

[00:27:16] Well, his helpers do have a blackface, but they're smudged.

[00:27:19] But they may have a smudge.

[00:27:21] They may have a smudge.

[00:27:22] So that bothers me that it was specifically targeted for kids.

[00:27:25] This tradition of.

[00:27:27] Yes.

[00:27:27] How can we make the kids, you know, why the slaves are happy.

[00:27:31] So they want to give gifts.

[00:27:33] Like, I just really have.

[00:27:35] I take issue with that.

[00:27:36] The issue I have with that, like you, Benef, is the fact that I just want them to make sure

[00:27:42] that they educate them the right way.

[00:27:44] I think what they're doing is they're educating them based on what you read, Tricia, on the

[00:27:49] history.

[00:27:50] But I think what needs to happen is they need to educate and let folks know that the black,

[00:27:56] the meaning of the blackface and why it's not considered racist.

[00:28:02] However, you don't need to have a full on black face.

[00:28:07] That depicts what we have been struggling with in different parts of the world.

[00:28:12] However, they, they being Europeans, think Americans are too sensitive when it comes to

[00:28:18] the race issue.

[00:28:19] Yes, they do.

[00:28:20] I disagree with that.

[00:28:22] I disagree with that.

[00:28:23] No, no, I disagree with you too.

[00:28:25] But I'm saying, yes, I do agree with the fact that that's how their thinking is.

[00:28:29] Yes.

[00:28:29] And it's unfortunate, but I think what we need to do, and I try to do it every time someone

[00:28:34] says that to me, is to educate them why we feel more sensitive about it than any other

[00:28:40] country.

[00:28:41] Because remember, we are a melting pot before Europeans became a melting pot.

[00:28:47] So we are impacted more about it because they are the ones that started it and pushed

[00:28:54] it out to us in all kinds of purposes.

[00:29:00] So, so where do we go from here?

[00:29:01] So where, where does, where does, where, where do, in our opinion, where do we feel?

[00:29:06] I'll tell you where not to go is to go to Google and search images of black peaks.

[00:29:13] I'm just getting pissed off here.

[00:29:14] Yeah.

[00:29:15] Yeah.

[00:29:15] That's what the problem is.

[00:29:16] Yeah.

[00:29:17] That part.

[00:29:19] But I urge people.

[00:29:19] Don't do that.

[00:29:20] Don't do that.

[00:29:20] Don't do that.

[00:29:20] Once you get past that.

[00:29:21] No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:29:22] No, Benef.

[00:29:23] I urge people to go and Google what it is and see what the tradition looks like.

[00:29:29] And then I urge them to look at the news.

[00:29:32] Yeah.

[00:29:33] You're going to see some of the, we're going to have some of the pictures here.

[00:29:35] We're also, I'm sure within our video, we've had, I'm hoping that that's what we're going

[00:29:39] to do.

[00:29:39] We're going to put some of these things that we have.

[00:29:44] But yeah, it's, it's, it's a little, it's a little jarring.

[00:29:48] But you'll see the difference of what it, what it is in certain parts of the, of that

[00:29:54] area that traditionally do this, this, this celebration.

[00:29:59] But then you're going to, you know, there's protests, like I said, to combat this issue.

[00:30:04] And they're saying you can do away, like I've said, with the full on black paint and just

[00:30:10] make it a little dust here and there.

[00:30:13] And that's it.

[00:30:14] I won't have an issue with that because no one is using the N word.

[00:30:18] No one is using, oh, it represents a slave and all this other stuff.

[00:30:22] We know what it is, but you don't need the red lip.

[00:30:25] It's just common sense.

[00:30:27] This has been an awesome topic.

[00:30:28] I actually cannot wait to discuss this.

[00:30:30] So this, this has been, this has been, first of all, enlightening because of all the research

[00:30:35] that we had, you know, we've done and getting to meet great people like Wren, you know, that

[00:30:39] are interested in bettering their community.

[00:30:41] So in what they do, but more importantly, I think for us too, just our perception and

[00:30:48] growth and, you know, and this whole thing and, and, and that, yes, when we do travel,

[00:30:53] you're going to come on, you're going to come upon these things.

[00:30:56] So, you know, the best answer is to educate yourself and what it is.

[00:31:02] Yes.

[00:31:03] Be mad for a minute.

[00:31:04] Do your research and then move forward and how you can, you know, still enjoy the community

[00:31:10] and the country that you're in without having this lasting impression.

[00:31:13] Amen.

[00:31:13] So I think that's the, that's the takeaway.

[00:31:15] Thanks.